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I was recently asked if I'd be willing to add a flute part to a West coast recording project. In the past, I've usually had to book studio time or go to the recording artist's studio or spend some con time in a hotel room with recording equipment. I'd really, really like to figure out a way I could do this sort of thing from my basement office with my laptop and high-speed connection. Far less hassle, money and time.


I have one good microphone, plan to get another.
I have one microphone stand.
I have a pre-amp.
I have a pair of small speakers.
I have a 1.25 GHz PowerBook G4.

I tried Logic Pro, but the learning curve was intimidating, and my tendinitis limited the amount of clicking I could do at the time. Now my tendinitis is much improved, but I would need to upgrade Logic before being able to use it with OS X. Before I do that, I'd like to investigate other options.

I would VERY much appreciate advice on what I need to be able to fulfill my goal of being able to collaborate on a recording project long-distance. I'm a newbie at this, so would need advice on a very fundamental level. :-) I know I need to be able hear the track I'm recording on, for example, as a timing guide WHILE I'm recording my own part...but what software/hardware do I need to do this?

Can I use something like Garageband for a simple recording, or is that only good for click-track songs with unvarying tempo?

Are there any good resources for newbies online with basic MAC-based home recording info that any of you could recommend?

Ideally, of course, I could also use this equipment to possibly record Urban Tapestry's children's filk CD project (and other projects, of course). I realize this would require more hardware.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Comments

[info]vampirdaddy wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 01:05 pm (UTC)
Well, you already have most of the hardware you need. One thing you will definitely need to add is a good pair of studio headphones. CLOSED studio headphones, so the monitoring you listen to does not bleed over into the microphone recording. Key here is faithful/precize reproduction and excellent damping of external noise. I myself am very satisfied with AKG-K171studio / AKG-K271studio headphones.

I do not know the quality of the Mac audio I/O system. The one of regular PCs is abysmal, thus the first recommendation there is to get a "real" audio interface. If you want to upgrade there, look for a system that already has 48V phantom power, headphone amp included, and features "real" connectors (XLR for mic, 1/4" jacks instead of 1/8"minis) and you're quite probably a step into the right direction.

As for software: as long as you do not need MIDI, I'd recommend to have a look into Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/), which is open Source and available for Mac, Win and Linux. It is one of the two programs I use - the other one - the heavyweight for complex editing - unfortunately only is available for WinXP: Adobe Audition (formerly CoolEdit Pro).

Compared to Logig/Cubase the learning curve on both is very low, the programs are fast and easy to use.

Audacity has the advantage that you can share complete projects between Mac, Windows and Linux users by simply exchaning the project files. No more im-/exporting...
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:30 pm (UTC)
Thanks so much! Yes, I think I need to invest in a pair of good closed headphones. I've posted a follow-up, if you're interested:
http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html
[info]legoline wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 03:04 pm (UTC)
I can't give you advice on the hardware as I simply don't have the money to buy such equipment and thus NO experience whatsoever, but I record at home, too, with a simple headset - mainy to send the songs to Lisande, Aryana etc. to give them an idea what the song might sound like. Anyway, I, too use Audacity which vampiredaddy mentioned above. It has some neat little features and I'm really content with it. My friend Jana also uses this program for their university radio group, it's really nifty considering that it comes for free.
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:31 pm (UTC)
I definitely am going to check out Audacity. I'm sure I've used it once a long time ago. Thanks!
[info]mdlbear wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 03:27 pm (UTC)
I really have little to add to what [info]vampirdaddy has already said -- it's all good advice. Good headphones (my Sony 7509's are overkill given my aging ears, but I'll keep them), a USB or Firewire interface that supports 24-bit samples (you already have a preamp, it seems), and Audacity. Four channels and the ability to record at 96 KHz are good, but not essential because most CD projects are going to be recorded one or two tracks at a time at 44.1KHz to match the CD rate. You do want 24 bits, because it gives you more headroom for editing and to avoid clipping.

I'd add that you want a monitor, keyboard, and mouse on long cables so you can put the controls within arm's reach with the computer as far away as possible from the microphone. Two or three meters at least. (I'm in the process of putting together a totally silent Linux system for recording, having found that my laptop was noisy enough to be a distraction, even though it didn't come through noticably on the microphones.)

I can't recommend Audacity highly enough -- it's free, cross-platform, fast, and easy to use. It breaks tracks up into 1MB chunks that it strings together using a text file; it ought to be possible to manage a project with a web-based version control system like subversion and only ship the changes around. (Coming to my own projects Real Soon Now.) You can see a real, working Audacity project (in progress) here, though it hasn't been updated with the latest tracks -- it's what I pointed [info]cflute at to practice with.

If you have money left over after buying the essentials, spend it on microphones.
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:31 pm (UTC)
Thanks so much for this advice! I've posted a follow-up, if you're interested:
http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html
[info]filkertom wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 03:30 pm (UTC)
Well, I know you can do it, since I am. ;)

Not knowing GarageBand, but being extremely familiar with the program it emulates, Acid Pro, and looking over GarageBand's specs, it should be easy. It lets you adjust tempo and key as you need to, and records up to eight live instruments, so you should be good to go there. The likeliest thing to do would be to load in the .wav (or maybe even just a lower-resolution .mp3, to save memory and processor muscle) of whatever it is you're playing along with, set another track to record, and... play along with it.

The limiting factors here are [a] how you connect the mic and pre-amp to the Mac and [b] how good the internal Mac sound recording is. No way to tell without trying. But, unless it's truly dire, you should be able to clean it up with Audacity.

A few links (including some Mac-specific) that might help are:That should keep you busy for a few minutes. ;)
[info]mdlbear wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 03:55 pm (UTC)
Audacity goes up to 10 simultaneous tracks on the input, I believe, though that involves spending a lot of cash on mics and preamps.

Get an external interface that goes to 24 bits; no matter how good the Mac's internal interface is, the external one will be better. Another nice thing about Audacity, though, is that it stores data in floating point so that, if you do need to combine 16- and 24-bit samples, you can do it easily.
[info]filkertom wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 04:51 pm (UTC)
Yes, yes, there are lots of software solutions for 16/24/32 bit. I'm asking about her hardware, which will limit what the software can do. For instance, the general audio standard for PC sound has picked up ever since AC97 became standard on most motherboards, and it's good enough for my mobile recording with the laptop... but my Creative Audigy 2 card is better.

Also, Garageband should be already on her system, and it's got a much lower learning curve than Audacity. I'm not knocking Audacity -- I recommend it to people myself -- but, if she's got it, she might not need anything else right this second.
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:32 pm (UTC)
Thankyouthankyou for those links! And all the great info...it's MUCH appreciated, Tom.
If you're interested, I've posted a follow-up at:
http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html
[info]jslove wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 04:20 pm (UTC)
You definitely need a pair of closed headphones. Good microphones are very sensitive, so they will pick up earbuds and other open types of headphones. They do not have to be excellent headphones since all you are planning to do with them is listen to the scratch/partial mix to get in sync with it.

I assume your speakers are powered ones. You won't need them while recording!

You are going to need the scratch/partial mix. They could probably furnish this as MP3/AAC, since the fidelity is not that critical. Thus, you can get that over the net.

The usual problem with the built-in converters in a computer is that they are not as good as outboard converters can be. In this case, you are not that concerned with the output converters, because you are only monitoring the scratch mix with them, but the PowerBook's output converters are probably better than its inputs.

You can experiment with the input converters. If they are not good enough, you can find USB and Firewire boxes that contain good converters. Depending on the box, you may have to install device drivers. Rather than buy, say, a MOTU 828 or 828mkII Firewire converter box (which has way more channels than you'll need), you might be able to borrow one. If you were closer, I'd lend you mine. There are cheaper input converters; USB is generally cheaper than Firewire.

The big question here is, what is your input path in more detail? What is the mic you have? Is it a condenser mic? If you have a dynamic mic, I'd be less concerned about how good the input converters are. Condenser mics have to be powered, even to generate mic-level output. This power is provided either by a battery inside, or by "phantom power," which is provided by your pre-amp or mixing board or even an outboard phantom-power supply.

I assume you don't have a line-level mic (which would also require a battery), since you mentioned the pre-amp. Does the connection between the mic and the pre-amp use three-pin XLR connectors, or some form of 1/4-inch or 1/8-inch jack? Unless it uses XLR, phantom power is not an option, so a jack and no battery is definitely a dynamic mic. (There are other, less common types than condenser and dynamic, but in most ways types like electret and ribbon mics are similar to condensers for our purposes. Ribbon mics are fragile! Condensers are, too, but they usually aren't destroyed by a really loud noise, e.g., Ed Stauff setting off his cannon fairly near my mics at his and MEW's wedding.)

GarageBand seems to have the smarts to do what you want. It matters which version of GarageBand you have. V1 to V2, I think, was a free update. V4 came in iLife 04, and V5 came in iLife 05. I am referring to V2 at the moment, although I do have V4 here on another machine.

You can use drag-and-drop to import the scratch mix into GarageBand, then record yourself on an additional track (or tracks) as a Real Instrument. You can even convert the scratch mix into a loop, so it will play automatically over and over while you record multiple sequential takes of your part. (Recording multiple takes on parallel tracks might make the exporting into more work.)

The only output seems to be export-to-iTunes, but you export to iTunes in an uncompressed format, AIFF. You could convert that to another format, like AAC or MP3 within iTunes, but not just now. In this case, you'd want to export your mix, consisting of just your new track, or the scratch mix panned left (for synchronizing) and your new track panned right, and then pluck the AIFF file(s) out of the iTunes library or burn your mix to an Audio CD from with iTunes.

I figure you'd be better off mailing an audio CD than transferring ginormous AIFF files over the net. How fast is your connection and how much of a hurry are you in? How long will the mail take?
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:33 pm (UTC)
Wow, thank you SO much for all this great info. I've posted some pics of the hardware I have at:
http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html

I'm thinking you might be right about mailing an audio CD, too.
[info]jslove wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 06:14 pm (UTC)
That's definitely a dynamic mic. It's a vocal mic, incorporating a (rather inadequate) wind screen. That's kind of a mixed bag for recording a flute. Depending on where you put the mic, there may be a bit of wind from the flute (or your lips), but vocal mics can have deviations from accuracy that are intended to make voices sound better; a flute might not fare so well.

It does have an excellent review, but that doesn't discuss its use with non-vocals.

This is a highly directional mic. That means you may be able to get away with having it farther from the instrument than otherwise. This can be good for two reasons: less need for the wind screen, and also some of the distortions intended to make voices sound better are most pronounced when the singer is very close to them; this is called, "proximity effect."

At least you do not have to worry about phantom power. On the other hand, at least the Duo has a phantom-power switch. It looks like that makes your dbx mini-pre obsolete, although you might try using the mini-pre into the Duo (line level at the Duo), because different pre-amps can sound different, and you might like that better.

I suggest you experiment with microphone placement. You're looking for good tone. If sound is off-axis (coming from other than where a directional microphone is pointed), it can be distorted, which is most likely bad in this case. Also, you want to minimize extraneous noise, such as hiss from your blowing over the flute.

If you go to buy another mic in the future, listen to it with the kind of sound you want to use it with (vocal, flute). Compare a couple of mics, or more, if possible.

Good luck with your project.
[info]billroper wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 04:47 pm (UTC)
Being a bit contrarian:

Is there any particular reason why you want to record to the Mac rather than buying a small piece of dedicated hardware? Yes, I know you already own the Mac, but would you be more comfortable using something with knobs and faders than having to use a mouse for everything?

If you can work in 8 tracks, there are a number of small digital recorders out there that will supply phantom power for a condenser mic, that probably have a better analog to digital converter than the one built into your Mac, that will allow you to dump out tracks (and I'm guessing import them, although I haven't checked) via USB so that you can send them to collaborators, and the like.

You can get a 24-track wide (!) stand-alone recording system for $1200 U.S. (The 8-track units are half that price or less, depending on exactly what capability you need.) And any of these units are easier to take where you need them than hauling the Mac is likely to be.

Just a thought.
[info]tfabris wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 05:10 pm (UTC)
I agree that a dedicated piece of hardware is simple and effective. However, we're talking to Debbie Ohi here, who is particularly good with computers and would have no trouble doing the work on a PC. Depending on the software, you can get certain amounts of speed and flexibility with a computer that you won't get with a multitrack recording box.

Also, she talked about doing remote collaboration, something that PC-based recording makes exceedingly easy, but which I wouldn't even guess at how to do with a dedicated box.
[info]billroper wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 05:31 pm (UTC)
Well, yes, but she also mentioned tendonitis and I'd like to try to avoid a recurrence. :) Also, I'm looking at the ease-of-use thing which you can get with dedicated hardware, although someone who's already comfortable with a computer and mouse will have fewer problems with the computer software.

As far as remote collaboration goes, as long as the dedicated hardware box can import and export WAV files, no problem. Every one that I've looked at will export a WAV file, but you'd have to check to make sure that you can import a WAV file and add it to the project on any given device.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 09:46 am (UTC)
Dedicated hardware
(From MartinGK)

I would second Bill's comments. I would also claim to be fairly highly computer-literate, but I went for a dedicated recording machine and have never looked back. I have used two in the same range, the Roland VS series. We recorded our album "Separate Worlds" in our living room on a borrowed VS1680 (thanks Minstrel!) and then took the plunge and bought our own VS2480 on EBay. For those who have listened to Mich Sampson's album 'Just Beyond', that was entirely recorded, mixed and mastered on our VS2480 in our music room. I'm fairly happy with the recording quality of that.

Three reasons for dedicated hardware. First, you have an operating system that is designed to do nothing other than crunch music. I'm well aware that Macs are much better than PCs at not getting distracted while working with music, but in my mind a dedicated OS is still going to win. If you are not careful, you end up paranoid about installing other things on your computer in case it mucks up your audio setup.

Secondly, all the extra kit you either need or potentially even would like is built in. My VS has 16 preamps built in. It has a wide range of effects built in, including sweepable EQ and compression on every channel. Most importantly, it includes a mixing board with real faders. I think you will find those much easier to use to mix than anything requiring a mouse, both from a visual point of view and very much from a fingers point of view!

The final one is ease of use. At one point during the recording of 'Just Beyond', we had the Strumpets up for the weekend, and Mich wanted to record 'Justin's Song', for which we decided to lay violin, bazouki and bass guitar simultaneously to get the group sound we wanted. Unfortunately, I was the bass player, and Andy (my wife, and the other person who knew the VS) was out. We were using the living room for playing to get more space, but the recorder was still in the music room, so dashing between them wasn't an option (and would have been nasty anyway - I can either be a musician or an engineer, but not both at the same time). Up steps Corwin, Talis' son, who took over the VS without having done more than look over my shoulder the previous day and recorded 5 takes with no problems at all. Without taking anything away from his quick learning, it says something about how quickly you can pick up a VS.

Looking at the prices you can get second hand VS units, particularly the smaller ones, for on EBay, I would give them serious consideration as an alternative solution to using the Mac (and no, I'm not a salesman for them - I just like them!). The online user forum is www.vsplanet.com - not run by Roland but regularly contributed to by them. I 've asked quite a few "how do you do this" questions on there, and usually got an answer back within hours.

Sorry - that sounds like a preach, looking back - hope its useful. Feel free to email if you want anything else on this!

Cheers

Martin GK
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Dedicated hardware
Thanks so much for this advice, Martin! Money is an issue re: purchasing dedicated hardware right now. Someday, tho, I'm hoping to upgrade my system.
[info]jslove wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Dedicated hardware
Martin is too tactful. The biggest win about dedicated hardware is that it hardly ever crashes.

Even for the extremely computer-literate, a crash in front of customers is a bad thing. You may have that problem, but still, it loses you time and maybe a lot of work.

Computers may have subtle problems, which Martin also alluded to. However, so can fancy hardware, especially in the hands of inexperienced users. By the way, anyone can be an inexperienced user with a new piece of kit.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 06:57 pm (UTC)
Re: Dedicated hardware
(from Martin GK)

That the first time someone's accused me of being too tactful for a while!

Agreed, Spencer - it just doesn't crash unless there's actually a hardware failure, which is rare. As with any digital recorder, you do need to make sure you back up, but with a built in CD this isn't that difficult. There's a nice gadget I am after that makes my PC pretend to be a SCSI device, so that I can back across to it from the Roland - will be slightly more reliable than CDRWs, although I've never had a problem so far.

Agreed on experience - I've recorded two full albums with the VS so far, and (surprise surprise) the second sounds better than the first from a recording quality point of view. The third will probably sound better than the second, for exactly the same reason. However, a much better monitoring system (proper speakers on stands in teh music room, as opposed to my living room hifi) also makes a lot of difference - I played back some of the tracks from Separate Worlds on the new rig, and winced at the number of things that I could now fix easily and hadn't.

[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:34 pm (UTC)
Ok, and here's where I truly prove how ignorant I am...what do you mean by "dedicated hardware"?

If it involves considerable money (like US$1200 :-)), the reason I'm sticking with my Mac for money is purely financial. You can see what I have so far at:

http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html

Someday, tho, I'd love to upgrade...

Thanks again so much for your advice, Bill.
[info]billroper wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2006 12:03 am (UTC)
Martin's covered that really well. Basically, it's a stand-alone box with a hard drive and faders that you can record into. After that, you're into the assortment of bells and whistles. :)
[info]tfabris wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 05:06 pm (UTC)
Some folks here mentioned needing a dedicated audio interface. I happen to have a brand-new (never been opened) Focusrite Saffire for sale. (I ended up buying a more expensive interface with more simultaneous inputs, thus not needing the Saffire any more.) The Saffire works great with the Mac. It has two low-noise inputs for microphones that can be used simultaneously. Research it at focusrite.com. It's pricey, though, retailing at $499.00 US. If you'd like it, let me know, and I'll bring it to FKO. If not, I'll ebay it.

Advice in the comments so far is good. Poke me at FKO for discussions in person and I'll see if there's anything I can add.
[info]tfabris wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 05:07 pm (UTC)
Oh, forgot to say, if you want the saffire, I certainly wouldn't ask you to pay the full retail price for it. We could haggle a bit.
[info]billroper wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 05:32 pm (UTC)
The only question I have with UT is whether they want to try to record multi-tracking or simultaneously. If they're trying to record simultaneously, two inputs isn't enough. (That would also knock out a lot of the dedicated hardware devices.)
[info]jhayman wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 10:48 pm (UTC)
If Deb doesn't poke you, I will! Very interested...
[info]tfabris wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 10:52 pm (UTC)
Interested in information about recording, or interested in the Focusrite interface I've got for sale?
(Anonymous) wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2006 10:53 pm (UTC)
Both
[info]tfabris wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2006 06:59 am (UTC)
Ah, Okie dokie. I'll pack the Saffire interface and see if I can avoid Customs complaining about it. :-)

I forget: Are you and Dave USians, or Canadians?
[info]ohiblather wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 05:35 pm (UTC)
Thanks for all the info, Tony! I've emailed you about the Saffire. You can see hardware pics and a follow-up at:
http://ohiblather.livejournal.com/214908.html
[info]bardiclug wrote:
Mar. 17th, 2006 09:31 pm (UTC)
Okay, it looks like you've gotten a lot of good advice here, so forgive me if I repeat anything.

As for equipment - you seem to have most of what you need. Your interfaces aren't as capable as an MBox or something, but they will do fine for what you need.

Your mic is a bit low end - but again, it's fine for what I think you want to do. If you decide to do an entire Urban Tapestry album on this rig, I'd suggest the band invest in a higher quality mic. All the processing power in the world can't make up for loss of signal.

For software, I'd go against the flow here, and suggest ProTools LE for Mac OSX. I've used it on a Mac laptop to create my reel movies and mixdowns, and it works fantastically. It's completely in line with what the pros use - and it's FREE!

http://www.digidesign.com/download/64/lemac/

Audacity is reasonable software, but since you have a Mac, you might as well use the defacto standard for Mac audio recording and processing.

The hardest part of doing home recording, of course, has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with set up, mic placement, room acoustics, artistic listening, and producer skills such as knowing when to do it again, and how to plan your album sessions for best results -- and many other factors that I just couldn't possibly teach you in an LJ post. If I were there, I'd come over and we'd set it up and go through some things. This is stuff you just have to see hands on. I guess that's why they call it an "art".

I'm not trying to discourage you at all - I think you'll do great. And the best thing to do is set it up and start recording stuff. Figure out the best room in teh house, and the best mic placement to get the sound you want out of your flute. Practice singing into the mic to get used to how you sound on tape and get the right distance for your voice and delivery.

Okay - that's enough. I've been doing this for a living for too long - I think I could write a book...

[info]mdlbear wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2006 03:57 pm (UTC)
Whether to go with Audacity or something Mac-specific depends on what the other band members are using.
[info]bardiclug wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2006 06:13 pm (UTC)
Actually, they will both save to common formats so that's not as much of an issue.
[info]mdlbear wrote:
Mar. 19th, 2006 03:37 am (UTC)
The difference is that, with a cross-platform program like Audacity, you don't have to export and import tracks and try to patch things together the way they were before: you can actually pass the whole multi-track project around, add to it, tweak the mix, and never lose any information.